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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Sun, January 27, 2008 - 7:40 PMI'm almost done with TSK, and I love it so far. I really havent wanted to mention much about it cuz I'm not sure how many of you are in this one alredy since nobody else seems to be comenting on it.
Here are some random thoughts:
I really like Will
I'm surprised that Lyra seems more calm in this book and willing to follow Will, then again she is really out of her element. Its fitting I guess cuz in TGCI kept thiking she was very lucky to keep runing into people that helped her out since I would have not blabbled about the Aliometer to the gyptians until I knew them better and she just told them right away..I guess the trusting thing finally bit her in the butt with Sir Charles.
In my head Dr Malone is played by Tina Fey
I really dont know where this is going right now...is the dust good or bad? I cant wait to see whats going on, I'm off to read. I'm gonna finish it tonite. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 3:30 PMThe dust is the respiration of the universe (not a spoiler, just my opinion....). Dust is a pretty interesting concept.... -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 3:36 PMI'm on chapter 10 right now, but it seems more appropriate to post this here since to do otherwise would spoil it for those not yet in the know...
I'm pissed at myself for not recognizing the similarity between Jopari and John Parry. It's been how many years of HP sleuthing and by this point in this series, I should be more accustomed to the naming of characters and how that influences the character itself.
I should've figured out before being blindsided that Grumman and Parry were the same person.
And again...that golden monkey of Mrs. Coulter's is a freakishly evil monkey. I half expect it to sit down in a closet and grimace and point at Lyra with dramatic music in the background. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 5:20 PMYeh I know what you mean, I almost kicked myself that I had not gotten who Jupari was earlier (I got it like a second before they actually said it lol) -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 5:33 PMIt was just a few lines before...the clan told Lee that Jopari had arrived mysteriously 11 or 12 years before. That *should* have done it for me, but at most it raised a little red flag in my mind and I raced to think what had happened at that time but it eluded me while I continued to read. THEN it all came clear.
*sigh*
I hate it when I'm off my game like that! :) -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 8:12 PMSo Amy...by the time you read this thread you'll have already found out that Sir Charles *IS* Lord Boreal.
I just gotta say I'm really impressed with your observation about his tongue darting out. I totally forgot about him even by the end of TGC, let alone halfway through TSK. I gotta pay better attention here!!
The only thing I figured out early (and it was more of a guess than anything) was that the subtle knife could be used to cut through between universes.
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Mon, January 28, 2008 - 8:14 PMhehe, thats when i got it.
BTW, I'm dont and...OMG I cant stop here, must keep going to the Amber Spyglass!!!
These books dont relly feel like 3 separate books but rather like one really long one
spoilers below so only read if you finished cuz I dont remember whats in each chapter
I Liked Lee!!! and that damn Jopari went back on his promise, I hate him! Whats with fathers endagering best friends in this books? I'm sure Will will go look for Lyra anyway but damn, Lee died for that guy and he could just casually mention, hey take care of this girl if you see her.... It seems to me so far both sides of the war are equally as insane and single-minded. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 12:59 PMThe kids I am reading the books to made an interesting observation. We were talking about Lyra and Will's bond after Pan touched Will (aka Lyra's soul reaching out and touching another for the first time.) I'm trying to lead them to understand that the archetypes all over this book are biblical, with Will and Lyra filling out the first man/first woman thing. That two can be two but also one, just like a person and their daemon. The girl, age 11, said brilliantly that it is like yin/yang. She drew the symbol and labeled the white section Will and the little black dot Lyra. Then she did the opposite on the black side, Lyra and the white dot being Will. They complete each other. I thought it was a lovely insight. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 2:10 PMI'm impressed! That's a very bright young lady there!
If they both had daemons, I'd encourage her to think of the black field as Lyra with the white dot being Pan, and vice versa for Will and his soul/daemon. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 4:37 PMThey are both quite bright. They are Jewish, so when we talk about any New Testament references there is a little more explaining needed (and being a heathen born and raised I don't know the details of any of the stories myself) but for being 9 and 11, they are wonderfully insightful and engaged in the story. Though the girl is starting to be a little too-cool-for-school as she enters adolescence and tries hard not to seem invested more and more. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Tue, January 29, 2008 - 5:15 PMThat's a pity. I wish to hell society would change to a point that learning new things will be seen by teens as 'cool'. Where education and intelligence are valued rather than mocked. *sigh*
Here's to hoping she grows out of that quickly! -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 8:44 AMIt's all that dust settling on her at the onset of puberty, with societal pressure as the spectres that try to suck the wide-eyed innocence and curiosity of youth from them.
I threw my book across the room when I finished it...another damned cliffhanger! This isn't 3 complete novels...just one split into 3 segments. Perhaps they were afraid it wouldn't sell if it was just one very long book. Gotta wait till payday before I can get the third and final chapter. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 8:52 AMI'm just happy I bought a bound set of the three books. I can easily understand the frustration of not leaping directly to the third installment.
It's a bit like LotR in that respect. That's really just one honking huge book split up into three parts.
In another respect, and in magpie fashion, these books are similar to Wicked. Not so much as a retelling of a fable book, but as a detailed look into the Other Side. In the original Oz books, we were taught that the Witch was evil and Dorothy and her companions were good. And that the wizard was kindly, but a charlatan. But Wicked showed us otherwise. Likewise in the Bible we're taught that God is good and Satan and the rebelling angels were Evil. Not so in this trilogy. It's an interesting take on fundamental beliefs. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 8:55 AMAlso, does anyone else get the feeling we're going to get to meet Will's daemon? I mean, his father grew up without one but was introduced to his daemon when he crossed into Lyra's world. I imagine the same will happen to Will when he goes there (and I have no doubt he will in TAS). -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 10:04 AMAbsolutely! I also keep wondering what forms both Will and Lyra's daemons will eventually take.
Of course, there is also the possibility that Lyra's daemon will not settle on any particular form, but will go inside her as Will's has. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 10:07 AMThat's a possibility for sure, but I was thinking that neither hers nor Will's will settle into any form ever. I imagine that their side will win the war and the angels will start anew with Lyra as Eve and Will as Adam and that neither will lose their innocence in the new Garden.
At least, that's how I imagine it to turn out. I could, as I often am, be horribly wrong. :) -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 11:39 AMBut that is what Mrs. Coulter wants- to prevent another Fall. To not lose one's innocence is to also not gain knowledge of the world. Would you want to remain a child your whole life, never know passion, romantic love, sexual love, question your place in the universe? Would you hope for Lyra and Will to never eat the apple?
That is what the Oblation Board wants, what they are trying to achieve by severing the children from their daemons. As I have read it, Dust settling is the awakening of knowledge. It is a messy and wonderful thing. The severing is like castrating and lobotomizing. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 11:41 AMAlso, it seems to me that Pan spends most of his time as an ermine, and that is how he sleeps, so that's my guess for his final form.
I read this entire series years ago, but have forgotten so much that it's almost like reading them for the first time again. I only remember bits and pieces, like Lee and Hester or descriptions of places.
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 1:18 PMIt was just something the angels said to Dr. Malone. That they injected mankind with conscious thought as revenge against the Authority. It's hard to say what kind of a world they'd set up in the absence of god.
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 8:57 PMI keep wondering aobut Wil's daemon too! I thought it would appear when he went into Lyra's world like his dad's. He never did explain how exactly he got his daemon out, but from what he told Lee ('I was surprised to find out an aspect of me was beautiful and female" or something like that) it made it seem like it had just appeared. -
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Unsu...
Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Sat, February 2, 2008 - 9:49 AMI am totally in mourning for Lee. He was my favorite character, by far. Don't ask me why.
I was thinking that it was totally fitting for Pan to be an ermine. I forget where I read this, but I once read that during the time of Queen Victoria, ermine fur was reserved only for the queen herself. Thus making it reserved only for royalty. And Lyra comes across as being very queenly. It would not surprise me at all if that was the form that Pan eventually settled on, assuming that he will.
Mrs. Coulter is just..................abominable. I despise her and that horrid little monkey of hers. I'm surprised that she even has a daemon, because I seriously question whether that woman even has a soul. She's just so ruthless and cold. I shudder every time her name comes up.
Now on to The Amber Spyglass.
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Mon, February 18, 2008 - 9:40 AMI felt the same way about the books. They set it up so you can't stop reading. TSK in particular, it was so open ended. I need to take a break from before I start TAS, life getting in the way.
I was so disappointed when Lee died. I really like him.
I was also really pissed when the witch killed Grumman/JP. I nearly threw the book across the room! -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Mon, February 18, 2008 - 4:27 PMI was so moved and bummed about Lee! And how about how Will finds his father only to have him killed about two seconds later????? Man!!!!
I sure as hell hope we eventually find out why on that one. Simply spurning a witch when she wanted to have sex couldn't possibly be it??
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Thu, February 7, 2008 - 2:47 PMI was a little disappointed with Lyra in this book. I realize that she was learning that she needed to settled down a bit and not go balls to the wall (haha), but to not consult the althiometer at all without consent???? arg! Still, I'm loving the story and can't wait until my Amber Spyglass gets in!!
I do have another observaion riddled with confusion. It seems that adults are able to be seperated from their daemons (nurses & soldiers) with only mindlessness as opposed to the death that comes to the children. The children seem to be able to hold on to their personalities, but die of loneliness. Were the doctors intact? -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Thu, February 7, 2008 - 4:31 PMI think it was more that the doctors still had their daemons with them. The kids weren't just divided from them, they were deprived even of their pale company. I think that's what made the difference so stark. -
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Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Fri, February 8, 2008 - 10:32 AMLet's see... Lyra has this round, circular object that she identifies with and Will has this linear, straight object which he commands. IOIOIOIOIOIOIO-O-O-O-O-O-O... It so male/female symbolically amusing; so vaginally and phalliclly fabulous. The alethiometer is so complex and with all its symbols and the knife is so penetrative.
Well, i started wondering if Grunman/JP's osprey daemon was an angel, also. . Oh and some more of those witches had Finnish names. Like today, I worked with a chic named Jutta. Oh and akka as in yame-akka means like old woman old hag or old biddy. Yambe isn't a Finnish word. I think I mentioned before, too that earlier there was that belief that the Finnish witches controlled the wind. I was so pissed when the witch killed Grunman/JP. That aside for a second, whenever I give an injection or have inserted a catheter, I have put myself at the tip of the needle. I guess i am mixing up elements from the first two books.
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Unsu...
Re: TSK - Chapters 11-15
Fri, February 8, 2008 - 11:51 AMThat separation thing gets resolved later on in the books - but I won't spoil it for 'ya :)
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